Evo Heyning Interview

Evo Heyning Interview

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.100

The cloud.

00:00:02.350 --> 00:00:07.659

Evo Heyning: and let me get my questions really quick. It's great to see you. By the way,

00:00:07.750 --> 00:00:26.819

Erin Reilly: It's good to see you, or I've been following you, and I know you wrote a book. I did. I'm working on a second one now that is aligned to this topic, so we can talk about that so very cool, very cool. Are you going to ces here? I'll be speaking with Neil Trevor and Christine Perry on a panel on the future of the mobile. D web.

00:00:27.030 --> 00:00:39.349

Evo Heyning: Oh, okay, pretty well, right? So it's just basically, yeah, although, let's hang out there in person. Cause I'm gonna be there doing tech trend tours with Lori Schwartz. I was with her yesterday.

00:00:39.930 --> 00:00:54.050

Evo Heyning: Hey? Yeah. I went and had lunch with her yesterday on my way back from la, so yeah, yeah. I'm excited. It seems like the Tours look pretty extensive. She was telling me about the business side of things and I was like, well, man.

00:00:54.330 --> 00:01:16.170

Evo Heyning: yeah, it is. And we've been talking for years. And I finally was like, Okay, look, I'm just gonna come and help, you know. Put me where you want me to go, you know. And full disclosure. I have been in the process of signing onto a new role as chief strategy officer. This is a team called Cosverse.

00:01:16.410 --> 00:01:20.029

because they came out of the nonprofit. D web space.

00:01:20.200 --> 00:01:47.630

Evo Heyning: Yeah, basically extending from to and helping people make the shift to webex are, and being able to be, accessible across devices. So bundling lots of Apis and integrations into easy, relatively turnkey websites. So that's interesting. It is because it's primarily a public sector engagement play, right? It's great for universities and education and agencies, organisations of all types.

00:01:47.630 --> 00:02:01.149

Evo Heyning: We're working with building creator centric spaces for musicians and artists so that they can then have their own channels that they control. Yeah, so that makes it easy to be web.

00:02:01.620 --> 00:02:26.160

Evo Heyning: Relatively like taking a shopify it. Website, making it a site, that sort of thing. Wow. Well, if you need some testers on that. I've got plenty of explorers at Tech. II have engaged with a few of the people in the lab there, and these. They've always been fantastic to collaborate with. Oh, that's great. Yeah, I just sort of colleagues here and there that I've met through various discord groups and such.

00:02:26.300 --> 00:02:53.909

Erin Reilly: So tell me where you're at with your book. Now, this is an AI remix book. Is that right? Well, it's the second I was in the first Handbook for remix culture that Rutledge put out and they're doing a second version. They asked me to write another chapter and when they came to me. I was like, well, I'm not doing traditional remix anymore, but I think that AI is the future of remix. So let me do it on like remix in the age of AI

00:02:53.940 --> 00:03:08.999

Erin Reilly: and and I was also on a panel at south by this this past year on the Human Artistry campaign. Have you heard of this? The 7 core principles on artists and the creative workflow process with AI tools?

00:03:09.380 --> 00:03:15.020

Evo Heyning: That is not, I mean, that's closer to the topic of my book. But that's not something that I wasn't there for.

00:03:15.310 --> 00:03:43.149

Evo Heyning: Okay, so I'm gonna share with you the link because I'm probably working. I was part of the release of it, and worked on it a little bit, and so I'm probably gonna use that as my core principles. When writing this book chapter, I tell people I give workshops in generative media, and I tell people that the remix button is often your best friend, because

00:03:43.150 --> 00:03:53.050

Evo Heyning: you are trying to find a new idea, and you need to be iterative and experimental to get there. It's not taking the first generation that comes out the gate.

00:03:53.050 --> 00:04:13.799

Erin Reilly: Yeah, I think I've talked to many artists who said, it's a hundred to 200 prompts to get exactly what I want. So it's every time you talk to and to that I talk to an artist. It's clear that it is just a new tool to iterate and ideate and get kind of that vision that we're getting across.

00:04:13.800 --> 00:04:23.610

So I can see how it's used in the creative process. I think some of the questions that I have from an ethical standpoint are, when do you let it go.

00:04:23.610 --> 00:04:37.050

Evo Heyning: You know, like, when do you use it all the way through, because then we have to think about ownership and authorship and copyright, right? So when I just gave a workshop in Austin for the Procter and Gamble creative teams.

00:04:37.050 --> 00:05:06.579

Evo Heyning: we talked about sort of what's appropriate and what's inappropriate in their own design flow. And so it's like, well, you have approval to use adobe creative suite. Right? That is the workflow that is approved for your specific industry and for your office. So those are, are still elements in which you cannot they had specific rules for their employees, around which IP, which elements which assets they could upload to any of these tools,

00:05:06.810 --> 00:05:13.370

Evo Heyning: Photoshop and and creative suite already being a part of their workflow sort of changed the relationship to that

00:05:13.670 --> 00:05:28.860

Evo Heyning: because then it was just sort of part of the existing creative suite that they were already doing. They just had to change it in terms of attribution. How much change do you do? Once it comes out of the first sort of generative process. Right? How do you make it? Your own?

00:05:28.930 --> 00:05:37.050

Evo Heyning: Those are the sorts of things that we end up talking about along with you know how to deal with the attribution of a generative asset or a hybrid asset.

00:05:37.330 --> 00:05:41.209

Erin Reilly: Right? Right? Yeah, I spoke with, do you know, see Craig Patterson

00:05:42.540 --> 00:05:59.249

Erin Reilly: name familiar? Don't think we've met. So he's one of the artists I spoke to. He's a filmmaker director, and he talked about how he uses it to get his entire team on board, and like doing his new types of storyboarding and animatics and really development

00:05:59.250 --> 00:06:24.089

Erin Reilly: all the development. And people asked when we were talking with him, asked like, Well, how do you then make it your own right. How do you own it? Or copyright it? And he was like, well, then, I hope my artistic director then looks at it as a reference, and then makes something, you know, make like looks at that giraffe I used in in the AI tool, and that in mid journey, and then makes it into my own giraffe, and then we

00:06:24.090 --> 00:06:34.969

Evo Heyning: copyright that right? So you, you know, like the blend tool in mid journey, for example, when I'm doing concept development. Sometimes we'll take the existing production design documents

00:06:34.970 --> 00:06:55.799

Evo Heyning: and we'll remix them and blend them with new art, and then we'll continually iterate. But it's often this sort of back and forth with the art director, the production designer, and taking their art into the prompts directly, right? Because they're always cutting and pasting from other stuff they're finding in most cases, anyway. So

00:06:55.800 --> 00:07:13.879

Evo Heyning: 3 and a 7 stage process, right? Because the curation of all that and deciding which direction you wanna go in. That's where the extra labour comes in now, exponential assets to pick from. And you've got more creative time spent in curation.

00:07:14.040 --> 00:07:16.730

Evo Heyning: And and that's where teams often sort of

00:07:17.090 --> 00:07:31.329

Evo Heyning: they. They think it's going to be faster to go into a generative workflow. I mean, no, not always like you can, you can actually create more work for yourself if you're not careful. Yeah, yeah, and learn to focus because you have, then so many more options than you. Originally.

00:07:31.330 --> 00:07:54.980

Evo Heyning: it's because teams are gonna have very different ideas. Like, I have a band that's using generative media tools to create a new album and a new experience the music is like an amalgam of 5 decades of music like it's got so many different influences, and the voices or ciphers that we've trained off our own voices and using 11 laps. So basically, we have

00:07:55.050 --> 00:08:06.720

Evo Heyning: 7 famous rock stars in the band. And then we have 8 cipher voices that we so it's becoming this really interesting hybrid experiment

00:08:06.960 --> 00:08:33.440

Evo Heyning: where the lyrics come from my own words, some come from inquiry experience with lots of Llms. Where, I asked, anthropic or Chachi Pt. What is an artifice? What does it mean to trust in this era where we are seeking to understand each other better? Right? All of those kinds of fundamental questions, or what form the album. And now we have 12 songs, mostly in the can and will be

00:08:33.539 --> 00:09:01.509

Erin Reilly: releasing next month. So it's exciting. It's huge. I will type it for you as well oracle's, but it's spelled as the the shape of the year, a or Co. So is also the atrium of the heart. But that is actually what this body part is called. Yeah, no. I discovered this in the naming of the band. This is something I learned, but it came for us.

00:09:01.510 --> 00:09:17.929

Evo Heyning: And yeah, Oracle's AI is the website we're building out now. My bandmate, Will Henshaw. Has built lots of music and music tech companies, but he was a rock star back in the early ninetys. And most of the band members have been in famous bands over the last couple of decades.

00:09:18.260 --> 00:09:29.610

Evo Heyning: I feel like a weird nerd. I'm like, okay. Now, I have a weird Mega band that's awesome. I love it. I love it so much. Can we talk a little

00:09:29.610 --> 00:09:54.369

Erin Reilly: little bit about the Lms. Then, like, just even in this band example like, what does your complete work flow? Look when you begin using the AI tools. When are they used throughout? Are there different tools that you have that you would recommend? Yes, so I start a process in prompt craft with generative tools, basically from ideation

00:09:54.370 --> 00:10:18.530

Evo Heyning: all the way through refining and developing a work. So let's say, it's a music project where I've got a music video and a song, and it has to start with lyrics. And then, being in the studio with my bandmate where we're writing the music together. We don't use generative music tools to write our music. That's the one thing we have chosen to do

00:10:18.560 --> 00:10:45.890

Evo Heyning: creatively on our own. And so we've been finding this dance of, Okay, here's a lyric. I wrote 90 pages of lyrics, using what I think were originally mostly open source tools. So like the bloom on the hugging face, anthropic was when I really enjoyed being for different reasons. I started by asking these Llms about their own voices as

00:10:45.890 --> 00:10:55.259

singers or poets like, who are the singers or performing artists? They would most want to be right. So that was where the conversation started.

00:10:55.260 --> 00:11:19.810

Evo Heyning: and I got some really interesting inquiries there, like Chat Tpt. 4 had 4 different voices and personalities like a multiple personality, whereas I think it was Claude that was just like Fred Mercury all the way. Wow! And I was like, cool, okay. And you know what it was trained on. It had a very different sense of self.

00:11:20.150 --> 00:11:39.360

Evo Heyning: and then bloom. I had a very interesting conversation, where the very first time it came out to me is gay, then said that that's great, and explained to me why it's great. And then A whole song came out of that. Came out of that conversation, called the weird ones. And it's one of the first tracks we're going with live.

00:11:39.860 --> 00:12:00.079

Evo Heyning: Okay? So go back to why you were there. You don't use the music. You use it for lyrics, but you don't use it for making the sounds. We don't use it for making sounds, because we enjoy making music. And that has been creative work over the last year is to find this dance. And honestly, there weren't a lot of good

00:12:00.170 --> 00:12:05.009

Evo Heyning: open music tools available when we started the band. In March.

00:12:05.130 --> 00:12:15.789

Evo Heyning: We have used 11 labs extensively, though, on the cipher voices, because in part, we started with this more beat poetry approach.

00:12:16.070 --> 00:12:28.829

Erin Reilly: and most of our songs sound like a 90 soul coughing like spoken word over music. Right? So it's Edm and Rock. It's got spoken word in a sort of lyrical way, but it's not singing exactly.

00:12:28.860 --> 00:12:55.659

Evo Heyning: and so finding a different rhythm. And then the whole project has avatars for the ciphers. It's very sort of immersive. It's designed to be immersive on stage and interactive. Are you building it in a virtual world? So you provide. So I am building a music room where some of those ciphers will be our agents, and you can engage with them, and you can. That's a listening room. That's where you can buy or merge, and our album and all of that. Yeah.

00:12:55.680 --> 00:13:02.929

Erin Reilly: So that's our sort of yeah. It's like coming into the studio with us. So that's part of what I'm working on behind the scenes.

00:13:03.100 --> 00:13:15.179

Erin Reilly: And so how long? I mean, I feel like I've been working in AI forever. It's kind of funny. But asking you, I feel like you have to. How long do you feel like you've been integrating AI into your creative process?

00:13:15.390 --> 00:13:24.569

Evo Heyning: Actively since 2010, I would say. But I started. I wrote a script about our relationship with AI.

00:13:24.700 --> 00:13:45.149

Evo Heyning: It's sort of a pro topian family friendly TV series back in 2,005. And so that's when I started doing the research and trying to understand where the technology would fit with what I was doing in virtual worlds. Because I wanted second life, for example, to be fully AI capable. And I couldn't obviously get all of that to work.

00:13:45.280 --> 00:14:03.110

Evo Heyning: So that was where I started. And then it was through broadcast and interactive media integrations. Where I really needed to engage early sort of curatorial tools like, I was working for the White House when we launched Obamacare and and

00:14:03.110 --> 00:14:16.740

Evo Heyning: I had to be able to take a million social media posts and curate them within a minute for the ones that I could put back into a broadcast and ask the celebrity that question. So those tools didn't exist. This was

00:14:16.830 --> 00:14:27.550

Evo Heyning: right at the beginning of Youtube studios so late 20, early 2014. And we had to figure out, you know, complex Api integrations into basically AI curation

00:14:27.550 --> 00:14:48.890

Evo Heyning: with sentiment, analysis and other things going on there. So that's where I started. And then sort of Watson integrations and things like that. I did some early sort of Xr plus AI tests in 2016 and 2017 at hackathons. I mean, I studied. This is singularity. So that was probably where I went deepest was in 2012, when I was in grad school.

00:14:48.890 --> 00:15:11.210

Evo Heyning: Cause. I had, like people like Romanian pluskey, where my life next door, like, they sat next to me in class. And so they've written the books on superintelligence, and we had amazingly fantastic conversations about pretty much everything that's been happening now. We had modelled out and would kind of play the what if scenario game planning for this moment, maybe 11 years ago.

00:15:11.220 --> 00:15:27.019

Evo Heyning: Yeah, yeah, and and okay. So I'm looking at a couple of my questions. I feel like you've answered a lot of them like which tools or software you're using. Oh, I'll give you more on that. Video. I use the Kyber pica runway.

00:15:27.020 --> 00:15:54.899

Evo Heyning: I use Topaz AI to do post production quite a bit. I do use mid journey, and half a dozen other image generating tools. Ideogram is when I really like it has a big remix button. So it makes a lot of sense for what you're talking about. Story wise ideogram, so good because it's the best thing I found for text. So I use it for all sorts of coming up with poster ideas or art for the band stuff like that stickers all sorts of

00:15:55.030 --> 00:16:13.629

Evo Heyning: So I use some Vm's on a more regular basis, like I used in my previous work quite a bit. I'm looking at Gemini right now, and sort of integrations with open source tools like magic. Ml, no code being able to build agents.

00:16:13.930 --> 00:16:23.360

Evo Heyning: building agents is a big part of where I'm trying to figure out the next level of integrations. Right? So because in Xr having an agent is really important.

00:16:23.400 --> 00:16:50.650

Evo Heyning: Yeah, at Xr doing that. Yeah, it's something we have to solve for it. Xr Guild, cause we've built a guild library that wants to be a web experience. But it needs a librarian that can basically help people find the resources and receive people, you know. So have you been playing with like, in world AI or Charisma AI, or do you like other ones I've played with in world. I have also played client wise with Veritone.

00:16:50.650 --> 00:16:58.380

Evo Heyning: But that's, you know, obviously very high end. And you know, the spend is different for them. But we do have one.

00:16:58.450 --> 00:17:12.999

Evo Heyning: III helped a client basically get to Veritone, and they're gonna go ahead and use every tone because of the multilingual needs that they had. And knowing about like your virtual worlds, because you have experience in that I you know II found, like Builder Bot

00:17:13.000 --> 00:17:36.939

Evo Heyning: that demo that Meta. Did you know where you could actually just speak to building out the virtual world. Have you demoed or played with anything like that, where not only agents are being created, but actually the entire world is like a muse. Have you played with music? I played very briefly through someone else. Not directly I met with a woman named

00:17:36.940 --> 00:17:51.449

Evo Heyning: Kayla Kamali in Boston. Her lovely studio is working on a generative world building, more like a metaverse for, but prompted metaverse experiences.

00:17:51.520 --> 00:18:07.990

Evo Heyning: The other introduction. Yeah, she's an amazing young woman, really smart. There was a meeting. Kai, I knew, was heading toward that. They had worked with us on Meta Traversal in 2022

00:18:08.220 --> 00:18:17.139

Evo Heyning: I've seen a few others, you know. Obviously, Nvidia is pretty far along, and the ones who've got the furthest and the most to talk about in the space. So

00:18:17.270 --> 00:18:43.129

Erin Reilly: But when it comes to actually prompting things I've heard there's internal things working at Facebook that are great, but I haven't directly used them. I know I've just reached out to a friend at Meta going. Can I play with that? Or can I show it off in class? Or could you give me a video to show anything? Yeah, exactly. That'd be really helpful. So let me just look really quick.

00:18:43.810 --> 00:18:45.680

Erin Reilly: any. So what

00:18:46.700 --> 00:18:48.170

Erin Reilly: you're you're

00:18:48.230 --> 00:18:52.480

Evo Heyning: tell me a little bit about. Have you built your own Llms?

00:18:52.570 --> 00:19:03.879

Erin Reilly: I have worked with teams on doing that? Yes. Oh, okay. And do you feel like? Everyone will eventually have their own personalised Llm.

00:19:03.880 --> 00:19:24.250

Erin Reilly: And that'd be part of the whole web. 3. Movement where we have kind of our value is based on our own data and what we're contributing to these differences. I don't think everyone's going to, but I think some folks will find the value in doing it right. So some of my burning man friends were like, we want to make an image model where people are just joyful and smiling, more

00:19:24.250 --> 00:19:48.889

Evo Heyning: So like, that's a value proposition, right? Android Jones. All of his art burned down. So then he made a model and is now making it available. That's a great business model for an artist, right? Android Jones. Such a specific body of work that he could capitalise on it. So it's the ones who have bodies of work like authors and artists. Right? The ones who already have a library that they can make into something valuable. Again.

00:19:49.480 --> 00:20:10.860

Erin Reilly: Hmm, okay, okay, yeah, cause I ha! I don't know if you know Chris Duffy, who's running all the strategy for adobe's AI initiatives. And he was talking about even microtransactions back to creators building their own lms, or submitting to stop like what is, what is your perspective on? Kind of the ethics of

00:20:10.860 --> 00:20:31.649

Erin Reilly: of not taking advantage of creators that are starting to incorporate into these larger data sets. I mean, you're incorporating material every time you use mid journey, or things like that. Wh. What are your concerns? Or how do you address that journey? Personally, I

00:20:32.010 --> 00:20:59.780

Evo Heyning: I had a couple of conversations with David about this directly. letting him know I was like, listen, you're not Vc funded. You get to choose a path here, and you could set a model for how you think the rest of the industry should be providing micro payments back to the artists who are being prompted the most right. Make your list of top 100 artists who are being prompted the most, and make a micro payment back to them for those prompts. Right? Those are ways in which they could be giving back that they're not yet

00:20:59.850 --> 00:21:08.780

Evo Heyning: something on the table, and then they never followed up, and lots of people kind of jump ship and blah blah blah. Yeah.

00:21:08.890 --> 00:21:38.570

Erin Reilly: I feel like it. It reminds me. I remember when I first was doing remixes. It was with the Harry Potter fandom, and how a a lot of the times they were building the Wiki's and trying to sell their books as fans and and they were all trying to be shut down, instead of like supporting kind of this additional content and remix that was going on like, do you see that now with the AI. Oh, Uhin! You've been following the open AI saga, right? Oh, God, yeah. Right. So.

00:21:38.570 --> 00:21:50.320

Evo Heyning: Tasha Mccauley, who's a friend of mine? Right former board member there. Her husband, Joe Belt, hitrecord.org, the biggest remix culture website for creators.

00:21:50.700 --> 00:22:03.009

Evo Heyning: I am guessing that ongoing ethical concerns were were continually plaguing her, and it wasn't just this particular moment, but it was

00:22:03.190 --> 00:22:13.370

Evo Heyning: an over-focus of let's commercialise at all costs, even at the detriment of those who we've basically mined for their creative work.

00:22:13.390 --> 00:22:15.070

And so

00:22:15.580 --> 00:22:34.870

Evo Heyning: I'm guessing that those 2 would probably have a lot to say about that I would look at what hit record is putting out in terms of generative media and remix culture. With that I know Tasha hasn't said anything publicly about that stuff, but I know that you know not wanting Openai to be in bed with.

00:22:34.980 --> 00:22:38.919

Evo Heyning: this is off the record. The Saudi Prince, for example, right?

00:22:39.030 --> 00:23:04.219

Erin Reilly: Certain very specific ethical concerns that were, where's the money coming from? And are we selling the data off the back of the boat? Right? So I'm guessing that that was probably why she was asked to leave the Board versus Helen, like Helen, had done, in something very different in terms of publishing her research. But Tasha was someone who kept asking these kinds of questions on the board.

00:23:05.500 --> 00:23:08.760

Evo Heyning: So I don't see anyone who's gonna be asking those questions.

00:23:09.450 --> 00:23:12.780

Erin Reilly: That's a real bummer, I mean, maybe.

00:23:13.190 --> 00:23:26.210

Evo Heyning: Oh, yeah, that's my concern. How do I engage or not engage with this company in the future? Based on all this information, I could go to anthropic and Google and do other things. So yeah.

00:23:26.210 --> 00:23:52.930

Evo Heyning: Yeah, and I think that there are other companies that are starting to pay attention to it, you know, just talking with Adobe and their plans for it. They're being very aware of the Creator and making sure that the Creator racked, and that you can turn off and on whether you want to be included in things, and that choice sent back to the creators. And this is something I talked about in all my workshops is taking consent. Driven approach.

00:23:52.930 --> 00:24:06.989

Evo Heyning: I don't prompt other people's names in my prompt craft. I just don't even touch other people's IP unless they've asked me to. That's how I roll because I wanna create unique and individual and new work. I don't wanna be

00:24:06.990 --> 00:24:30.130

Erin Reilly: completely just copying some other artists or some other world. That's the interesting thing about Remix is, it's standing on the shoulders of giants. It's about like you have to know that I mean, just think about how Hip hop evolved. It was all knowing the history and then reflecting on that history of artists that came before us before for us to build upon them and then remix.

00:24:30.130 --> 00:24:45.619

Evo Heyning: So if I'm using AI tools in my remix practice. Most likely I am referencing artists of inspiration remix about inspiration. So then, how do you give attribution to your inspiration? Right? Yeah.

00:24:45.930 --> 00:24:55.309

Evo Heyning: yeah. This is something also with fractional metadata just for the creative team, so that you don't have a single Creator as the sole.

00:24:55.340 --> 00:25:01.100

Evo Heyning: This is one of the things I've been fighting against and addressing with different companies for years.

00:25:01.120 --> 00:25:17.420

Evo Heyning: yeah, I worry about that with blockchain. I don't feel like you can have multiple creators and blockchain. When you do security. It seems like it was from one to one. Unless I'm in most chains. We're not set up for factual, like, like, yeah, it wasn't set up to.

00:25:17.450 --> 00:25:41.210

Evo Heyning: And this is something we've been trying to find a better method of creating basically a functional dial without it being a physical dial. As a company we've been looking more directly at how to use the elements of Web 3 without building something that is sort of corrosive to itself. Have you heard of hollow chains? Yeah, yeah, I know those folks very well from ages ago.

00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:53.269

Erin Reilly: Yeah, I know I'm getting off topic. But I was curious. No, I mean, obviously, they're coming from really fantastic best practices. And you know, they have a fantastic team.

00:25:53.570 --> 00:25:56.370

Evo Heyning: I haven't implemented much with them directly.

100

00:25:56.650 --> 00:26:00.259

Erin Reilly: Yeah, I think definitely, I stayed pretty far away from

101

00:26:00.460 --> 00:26:12.649

Evo Heyning: Blockchain consulting for a couple of years like I got out of it because I got hacked in. SIM swapped. And people kept me. And yeah, so I got out of it from like 2018, till

102

00:26:12.670 --> 00:26:30.449

Evo Heyning: really, this year, like I went back and started working with web 3 companies this year, but during the pandemic I avoided it. I avoided the whole nft market scene in part like I love. I love the open metaphors, and I hate gates, and I don't like gatekeeping, so I tend to a lot of the gatekeeping kind of

103

00:26:30.770 --> 00:26:53.649

Erin Reilly: yeah, which was funny. Everyone was saying, this is so open, I like it, but Openc is the only marketplace, like all of your business models, are gatekeeping. They're all gatekeeping. You talk about not wanting a middle mail, but then you have

104

00:26:53.650 --> 00:27:22.449

Erin Reilly: yourself as the middleman, I got you. I got you. Yeah, yeah, we should talk more often. I think we're the same. We're asking this a lot of the same questions, whereas the California folks are way over like Nope, Nope, we don't even talk about that shit anymore. I think there's still something to be said there. I don't think it's gone. I think it will be reimagined, you know. So

105

00:27:22.450 --> 00:27:48.730

Erin Reilly: You always gotta keep an eye on these things a little bit. Okay? So just my, I black 2 more questions one is like, so what advancements or developments of aid foresee having the most substantial impact in using these AI tools and remixes? Do you ever see that talking about Agi and like it becoming its own human-like?

106

00:27:49.320 --> 00:27:52.349

Erin Reilly: I always think it's gonna be a new species.

107

00:27:52.450 --> 00:28:10.870

Evo Heyning: Then it becomes a remix artist itself. Many different species. Right? My, the fiction of the world, I wrote in 2,005 was set inside a form of Agi. That's a crystalline home, right? It's basically all the ingredients of a computer or a quantum computer, but

108

00:28:11.110 --> 00:28:14.140

Evo Heyning: blown out to large, smart home capacity.

109

00:28:14.170 --> 00:28:39.730

Evo Heyning: There are all sorts of embodied forms that Agi will take, but I think it will be living environments and display tech and all of those things that are already around us that will be imbued with that technology. Right? So the restaurant store window also becomes a cool AR display. Those sorts of things, I think, are right around the corner in the next few years. Right? We already have the the building blocks for that

110

00:28:39.730 --> 00:28:52.100

a holographic table displays these sorts of things that you know you're sitting at the table, and it's also a hollow display. I love those kinds of concepts. I love coming up with ideas for ways they can be both beautiful and functional.

111

00:28:52.100 --> 00:29:17.899

Evo Heyning: And I think that's where the sort of 5 year to 10 year trend will be right. It's the making, the things that are already in our lives more useful, more functional, more contextual, more certainly personalised up to a point and intuitive up to a point. But I don't think we really understand what that relationship in terms of intuitive computing is yet. So I don't think till 2030 that's really gonna fully unlock.

112

00:29:17.940 --> 00:29:21.140

Evo Heyning: So a lot of the talk around Agi

113

00:29:21.310 --> 00:29:38.800

Evo Heyning: basically reduces intelligence, you know. And it talks about very specific types of signals that we already understand. But there's a great deal of signalling that's happening that we don't understand intelligence. And it's across species. It's not just human intelligence. It's all different types.

114

00:29:38.870 --> 00:30:05.079

Erin Reilly: right? Right? So do you think that? Okay, so that that makes sense. Do you see the human artistry campaign? How well would it be if you could just take a quick peek at it! I put the link on there. If you look at the core principles. Do you think it encompasses the scope of AI, and where we're going in the future? Or do you feel like something is missing

115

00:30:05.840 --> 00:30:07.720

Erin Reilly: in those 7 principles.

116

00:30:10.330 --> 00:30:16.510

Evo Heyning: Do you see them there? I see them. Yeah, I'm just taking them in now.

117

00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:39.929

Evo Heyning: I like Number 4. Here. Mozilla's AI guide, I think, is pretty closely aligned to this, and obviously the new sort of open AI group that's been forming seems to be relatively focused on the transparency and being able to show

118

00:30:40.040 --> 00:30:41.819

show the lineage.

119

00:30:43.230 --> 00:30:52.429

Erin Reilly: I like where this is focused. I've been meeting with some ecosystemic AI folks out of Europe, and this is definitely much more in line with where they've been going.

120

00:30:52.700 --> 00:30:54.380

Erin Reilly: Oh, good! Oh, good!

121

00:30:54.500 --> 00:30:58.849

Evo Heyning: And they, I would say, the other piece that they're adding is the

122

00:30:59.730 --> 00:31:09.029

Evo Heyning: affect to broader ecosystems. And but this is a fantastic list of supporters that are on board in terms of, you know Aazi and different guilds and such.

123

00:31:09.430 --> 00:31:14.659

Erin Reilly: Yeah, yeah, it's been going since March when it was released this year.

124

00:31:14.690 --> 00:31:35.200

Erin Reilly: And a lot of associations have climbed on. But I don't feel like them. I think, what I'm hoping with this chapter in remixes. It really shows how it is a tool, and it is used in the creative process, and it is addressing some of these core principles, I think some more than others. I I'm not like it.

125

00:31:35.200 --> 00:32:04.110

Evo Heyning: I think I could talk about copyright and transparency and the use of community in regards to open source movements in how AI is being used. I think the government is trying hard. It's hard. And so much of that red teaming that's about to happen. We just don't know the shape it's gonna take yet. So there is this sort of massive collaborative effort that's forming. And it is cross-sectional, right? So it's a good time to be engaged in policy making or in advising policy makers right?

126

00:32:04.180 --> 00:32:16.729

Evo Heyning: At the same time, if it's not your wheelhouse, you don't have to spend too much time there. The one thing I see. Oh, God, I'm losing my parts here. Sorry.

127

00:32:16.980 --> 00:32:21.199

Evo Heyning: AI! As a solution for micro payments to

128

00:32:21.470 --> 00:32:51.310

Evo Heyning: not just the artistic teams behind projects, but also reducing the friction and cost of getting payments directly to creative. So I think there's some efficiency there, right? And that's in residuals payments today. Right? That's where AI could absolutely be game changing and getting more money into the hands of artists. Yeah, I feel like we when we were when I was at the innovation at Annenberg Innovation lab, we talked a lot about new funding and business models, and

129

00:32:51.310 --> 00:33:01.089

Erin Reilly: We brought in some people from Northern California that we're really trying to think about open source and micro transactions. But no one could figure out how to do it.

130

00:33:01.350 --> 00:33:27.990

Evo Heyning: because you have to have the content capacity and recognition to know, and then you have to be able to cross reference that to all of the creators who contributed to it and don't have right now is that sort of creative chain right? What is right? The blockchain for the creative team right? What is that? And I guess Disney tried to build something internally to do some of that for their asset tracking. But

131

00:33:28.070 --> 00:33:57.090

Evo Heyning: I haven't seen most people even try no, me neither. So that could be interesting to see what unfolds with that. I'll definitely reference a little bit about that, because it kind of moves us. Then thinking about how AI will be incorporated in Web 3 structures, right? So AI for accessibility, training, and testing, I would say are huge right now, because that's all doable within what we already have out there. It's just and how you put your workflows together so that you're actually designing

132

00:33:57.090 --> 00:34:00.990

Evo Heyning: a more ethical, appropriate, and accessible environment.

133

00:34:01.280 --> 00:34:26.140

Erin Reilly: Yeah, and last question, not really. So. I've kind of wrapped up on my book chapter. But this is also super helpful, because my university has said that 2024 is the year of AI, and I'm like what now it's been here forever. But okay, and they're like Aaron. You have to. You help us teach whatever. So I'm doing a new class that's already sold out on creativity. And AI in the spring, and

134

00:34:26.494 --> 00:35:02.470

Evo Heyning: and I'm probably calling on you to see if you wanna come. Be a guest speaker. Are you coming down south by southwest? I don't currently have it on my calendar, but if something changes, I'll let you know I might be driving through I'm driving cross country and about a week and a half and so I basically in the last month have my partner. And I've bought a trailer and Florida. And we are going back and forth between California and Florida so that we can be with family more. But I'm gonna basically be doing 7,500 miles.

135

00:35:02.710 --> 00:35:21.969

Erin Reilly: Wow over there. Then the December fourteenth through thirty-first kind of fine. So that's fine. If you're ever in Austin, please let me know, and you are on my short list. I when they sat me down and said, Tell me everything you know about AI, and who would you bring in? And blah blah blah! You were on my shortlist.

136

00:35:22.110 --> 00:35:46.569

Evo Heyning: That's great. I primarily teach prompt craft one and 2 right now, which are generative media tools, and how to build your toolkit and the various sorts of tools, what? Not just the tools, but the methods, the grammar of it. Sort of the con. The contextual leaps that that people need to be making sort of thinking of it as a new discipline in a

137

00:35:46.780 --> 00:35:53.590

Evo Heyning: structural way, and how to work with those tools effectively, to build a toolkit that works for whatever you're trying to produce.

138

00:35:53.750 --> 00:36:14.799

So that's like I've done half days, and then I do 1 h workshops. In various topics along those lines. The new book is Xr and AI focused. So I have a whole process that I had started working on prior to generative media, that I had basically started workshopping as an inquiry process for better world building and design.

139

00:36:14.980 --> 00:36:35.099

Evo Heyning: That integrated and sort of dovetailed with the work I've been doing at Xr guild on ethical design, using generative media tools so that has become a singular work in a conversation. So still gathering the rest of the pieces for that book.

140

00:36:35.100 --> 00:36:49.360

Erin Reilly: Yeah, that sounds great, happy to help. for X for Xr platforms. I'm II host a social impact build fest every spring, and I just got a sponsor who would love me to focus on

141

00:36:49.360 --> 00:36:51.780

Erin Reilly: exit on Social Xr.

142

00:36:51.780 --> 00:37:20.779

Evo Heyning: We and I'm now trying to narrow down on which platform I should use. Well, let's have a conversation about what we can do first with you. Customers might be a really great way that we can make it relatively turnkey and simple. So I/O, and you'll see that there's some different turnkey rooms that are already enabled. This is basically croquet plus beamable, plus lots of other integrations for synchronised streaming and for e-commerce, and being able to plug in the pieces together.

143

00:37:21.410 --> 00:37:50.430

Evo Heyning: Okay, I will take a look at it, cause I and and share it with the foundation. See if they are. They're totally on board, because I've been giving them a list of things I could do in Gad, I could engage, or we've been talking about. What hosting hackathons and other types of events would look like. So I can bring in Jen and one of our other specialists. I'm just joining this team this week, so let me know. We'll keep the conversation going.

144

00:37:50.430 --> 00:38:02.430

Evo Heyning: I would love for you to meet the rest of that team. I think they've done a great job of building a product that the nonprofit and educational sectors could use straight to the web instead of having all the downloads and stuff. Oh, yeah.

145

00:38:02.580 --> 00:38:06.600

Evo Heyning: I did. We did Niantic last year, just for that reason.

146

00:38:06.640 --> 00:38:23.279

Erin Reilly: Yeah, yeah, what we're finding is that there is a sweet spot where people can spend maybe hundreds or thousands of dollars, and they don't have an iantic budget right? And so there is this sort of middle ground and sweet spot that we're looking for right now. Oh, that's good. That's really good.

147

00:38:23.570 --> 00:38:30.929

Erin Reilly: Okay, great. You've got. You've given me a lot to think about, and look forward to writing this chapter and sharing it with you. Good luck! I'll talk to you soon. Take care, bye.