C. Craig Patterson Interview

C. Craig Patterson Interview

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Erin Reilly: And let me pull up my

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Erin Reilly: interview. Doc. Okay. Great.

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Erin Reilly: so

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c. Craig Patterson: God, I have so many questions. The first one, the first one is, tell me who you are and like what your title is, and then kindly give me a little bit about your background . How did you first become interested in integrating the AI tools in your artistic practice?

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c. Craig Patterson: Yeah, no doubt. So I'm seeing Craig. And I'm a writer and director fortunate enough to be able to make some cool things with cool people.

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c. Craig Patterson: And I got into this space about a year ago, really a little over a year ago. As I was. Yeah, you know, when you dive in, you dive all the way in right now. Obviously like there was, you know, aspects of it that I've been interested in for quite a while, but like as far as practice

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c. Craig Patterson: practice started about a little over a year ago, and you know, I haven't had to look back since, because it's been such a useful tool in pre-visualization and in concept creation.

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Erin Reilly: Hmm, okay, so I'm curious. I'm I've been looking at every medium because the way I'm writing this book chapter is really thinking about some ethical considerations, and I'm doing it on 3 factors like the uncertainty, the insecure, the uncertainty in regards to like, where does the artist fit into all of this the insecurities like job displacement, economics.

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Erin Reilly: And then I'm saying, but above all, you have the key factor is embrace, curiosity, right? And what do you have to do? So? When I've been looking at different mediums? I really have been thinking about you in regards to what you shared when we were in La. The whole like visualisation, previz visualisation, using images and everything. And I've seen a couple of other artists do that. I know you probably

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c. Craig Patterson: probably know of, like the Cannes Film Festival. Well, the crow and You're writing about the Beatles with la! La!

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Erin Reilly: And how they took John Lennon's voice. What I'm having a hard time finding is just

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Erin Reilly: generative, like AI for the written form. Chat Gp, bard, you know everyone. That's what everyone is most used to. And I know I can build an assistant like a copywriter assistant. But like.

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Erin Reilly: Do you do? You feel like artists are leading more in towards the visual side when and and keeping the written word more for original work or for you for just you as a human working that process. Or do you know of any examples that have done the written portion

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c. Craig Patterson: For me, I definitely know more of the visual side of it. It. And you know I say that as a person who writes every day, right? So I haven't like made that walk in my brain yet so like even, you know, when you talk about prompts like to me, for

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c. Craig Patterson: For me prompts are as close as we have to like. That's still our soul in there. Right? So right now I have a bit of a not not a a wall, but at least a a small hill right of like the like man, you know, the the moment you start getting

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c. Craig Patterson: this system to be able to like. Write the prompts for you. Then you're really not needed in the system anymore. Right? You don't.

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c. Craig Patterson: It's it's it's giving up that. The thing that makes the reason that those images come out the way they do is that you spent the time to craft that and to make that that's part of the process of discovery. Right? That's with it. So if if you bypass that

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c. Craig Patterson: It feels like that's kind of getting into more hollow territory for me, right? But so I don't know of anyone else. I imagine the Wga. If you know them, It's a place where they're, you know, quiet, you know. Honestly fearful of.

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c. Craig Patterson: And I don't know how you combat it other than you. Kinda make a lot of people in your your

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c. Craig Patterson: your system liars, and say they won't use it, and I understand that even my outlook on it, even though I'm I'm you know, kind of taking a more

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c. Craig Patterson: expressive approach in space. Eventually I might change my my tune towards like, if

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c. Craig Patterson: Like, let's say you make your model right, and it's only your right. You feed it all of your writing because I have hundreds of essays from school. And you know dozens of square reps. I could pour all of that in there, and what it gives me back is me.

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c. Craig Patterson: But that's still a little weird. It's a little weird. I haven't, you know it's a little black swan for me, and I don't know how I quite feel about that as of yet. So that's good to know that II feel the same way, and I'm like, I'm wondering if anyone is. When I think about experimenting, I put all my writing in, and then do I put all of like

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Erin Reilly: I always say my name is Eb Riley. On all my handles are Eb Riley, and I always say like eb white, right? I always use that reference like eb white, so like. Can you imagine if I put all of eb white in with me, what would we make together, you know? Yeah. And and there's that there's like even saying it like that, you know, that has sparked my curiosity to it right like, oh, cause

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c. Craig Patterson: you know, it's no different than advertising algorithms like eventually, it will know you better than you know you

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c. Craig Patterson: right, because it's not. It's not distracted by anything else. It's solely focused on you.

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c. Craig Patterson: Yeah. But the interesting thing is I've done a lot of research on identity formation, right? And so you're

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Erin Reilly: Is it? All? Is your writing, all of you, and all of your identity, or just kind of a portion of your identity? I would say, hopefully, a small portion of your identity, right? Cause you have to live life to have something to write about. Right? Yeah, that you know that might be what would. Elon must say that I was a species.

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c. Craig Patterson: So I'm saying, you have to live life to write right? And then that's where I stand at this particular moment.

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Erin Reilly: Awesome. Awesome. Yeah. That's great cause that I'm asking everyone that question cause I think the writing process is probably the one that is so contradictory to how chat, how generative AI has come into mainstream. They've all focused on the text. And yet, as an artist.

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Erin Reilly: Every artist I've interviewed is not focused on the text.

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c. Craig Patterson: Yeah, yeah. I mean, III guesses it's a sacred space. Right now, you know what I'm saying. Now, I will say this, I use it for emails every day.

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Erin Reilly: Yeah.

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c. Craig Patterson: You know, like, because I use it. Yeah, yeah, if it's for if it's especially because, you know, there's dozens of things that don't require actual life.

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c. Craig Patterson: you know, a focus on it. If it's just like some other thing, it is. Merlin reads it and says, Oh, like this will be the answer to that. Are you okay with that Yup and

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Erin Reilly: cover letters. II probably was the only professor telling all my students to be like, if you're not using Gbt with your cover letters.

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Erin Reilly: Yeah, I agree there. So there's a difference. There's different types of writing types and visuals and everything. What advantages do you find in using these tools compared to the more traditional methods you used? Oh, a year ago.

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c. Craig Patterson: Yeah, so we spoke about it a little bit. Where? Ii was like one of the people on the beta side for the shop deck, right? And you know before that it was

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c. Craig Patterson: You know, man, III can't recall a name. I'll find it for you. But it was. It was basically shot deck before shot deck right and where you would just dive into like somebody had done the work of compiling all of these screenshots of all of these films right? And that's how I would make my decks, and it was fine, and that's how all of my friends and all other people that II know in the industry make the decks. And then I started noticing, like, we're all using the same image.

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c. Craig Patterson: because, you know, like depending on your your film education, like, you only know a handful of artists that you gravitate towards, and

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c. Craig Patterson: chances are they're gonna be artists that everyone else gravitates towards like everybody's like pitch decks were all Roger Deakins shots, right? And but unless we know Roger Deacons, we're not gonna have Roger Deacons yeah like make our move. So like, you know, that became a big deal to me. So being able to

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c. Craig Patterson: craft

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c. Craig Patterson: what, how I saw the world, and how I saw this moment in the movie and how I saw these characters to me made a huge difference in how producers and potential collaborators were responding to the idea because I didn't have to show you what it was like.

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c. Craig Patterson: I could show you what it was

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Erin Reilly: interesting, interesting, okay, and do you know of this human artistry campaign.

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Erin Reilly: No, I don't know. Oh, okay, II worked on it. It's actually a lot of associations and in a lot of media and entertainment industry. Put this together. I was on a panel at South by Southwest this year, where we released this campaign, and it's really and I think it was like at the big part of what all a lot of the artists were afraid of the creative workflow process.

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And you know, was it going to take over and what was gonna happen. And you can see down at the bottom a list of all the member organisations that were like, we're gonna abide by these core principles when we're thinking about the creatives interest and use, and how governments are kind of thinking about copyright and ownership and authorship and things like this.

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Erin Reilly: So the reason why I'm using this kind of in my book, chapter on like, do you think if you see the core principles. There? Are they hitting salient points that you, as an artist, want and need support from from companies and organisations? Or do you feel like it's missing something?

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c. Craig Patterson: Let's see quickly. We do this and no worries.

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c. Craig Patterson: So

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c. Craig Patterson: For the most part.

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c. Craig Patterson: I have. I have a little bit of a different outlook on the copyright piece.

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c. Craig Patterson: Especially if it comes from dependent on what the train model is. But and we also touched on it a little bit at at the event

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c. Craig Patterson: was

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c. Craig Patterson: at least where my soul is with it right? This second is that it's

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c. Craig Patterson: it. I don't know how you say something specific like you could absolutely say something is human, right? But there also the outlook of If I walk into the met, and I and I get inspired by Rembrandt right? And and I do something of that nature like

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c. Craig Patterson: I copied Rembrandt. With that you get what I mean like, that's that's like we. There's

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c. Craig Patterson: There's no originals other than you know God. Right? So it becomes a little bit different. I think that there's a tendency to demonise what's new and and I think about it in terms of music, right?

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c. Craig Patterson: When so when the electric guitar hit, the scene was like, wait a minute. Wait a minute, like when samples hit the scene. It was like, wait like I've I've seen this happen with other mediums, and I've seen it happen to specific cultures and things like that where like, Oh, well, rap! Isn't music

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c. Craig Patterson: right? That shouldn't be awarded that shouldn't mean. So it's like we're in a space because you and I know that to craft the images that you need, it's a craft to craft the things that you need with AI in any type of way that's or or any type of generative. That's that's a craft that's not a simple thing to do, so to say, I deny you

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c. Craig Patterson: the ability to copyright your work

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c. Craig Patterson: because we don't view your work as work is a dangerous precedent for artists to stand that. Now do I think that there should be some qualifications? Of course everything needs qualifications, but as a full stop, catch all. I think that's a it's a

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c. Craig Patterson: it's the incorrect stance

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c. Craig Patterson: In the long run, because I guess, and that's just from the lived experience of seeing it happen to other people and seeing it happen to other artists with things.

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Erin Reilly: Yeah. And it's interesting. I remember you saying at the beach house. Someone asked you about copyright, and you're like, and they asked, What do you copyright? And you had said, Oh, I will show you this visual draft, and then I'll give it to my production designer, and they will build it. They will. They will use it as a representation, and then actually build it with their own hands or with their own paintbrush.

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And then we copyright that you know. So

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Erin Reilly: So it's so. I think you and I are on the same page. I. That's why I'm calling AI tools a form of remix. And your rap. My first book chapter on Remix was literally on the history of hip, hop, and rap. Right? So I agree with you. I think that we have to stand on the shoulders of giants. We have to just understand the history of where things came before. And I think that's where the data sets are right. That's why we have data.

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c. Craig Patterson: And then, you know the unfortunate lived. Experience also is, we know that there are people that will find a loophole and take advantage to the fullest and just be printing copyrights, right? Just like

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c. Craig Patterson: iteration iteration like. And obviously, that's not what we want, right? But yeah. It's tough, especially, II think, about, you know.

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c. Craig Patterson: what! It must have been like the day that the green screen rolled out man and scenic designers, that it had generations of families like that, that this is what we do. It was over overnight, and I'm sure that they looked at Vfx like in that type of way. And in a way where this wasn't artistry. These are artists, and it's just different. What's the term? That I'm I'm

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c. Craig Patterson: unsure of my feelings on it. But, like the term, is what change management, right and and and change management is. I completely agree with the concept of it, giving it like this, like a kind of box name, is a weird one for me. But, like, you know, to let artists know that like, yes, this tool is coming through the pipeline like one of the things that we're doing with our film.

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c. Craig Patterson: Is that

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c. Craig Patterson: The rule was, we lose no artists.

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c. Craig Patterson: Period right? Like every artist, they have their own training set of things that they're gonna use. And this is an extension of their own hands. This is your work.

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c. Craig Patterson: Ex, exactly. You know, a absolutely and and and I think that that's

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c. Craig Patterson: That's the way to look at it. Is that like there's no way to stop this train, but you can control where the tracks go, and and and how it, how fast it moves, and things like that. So if artists were in conversation with the law, you know, this is such a great area, you do feel like there are some checks and balances that do need to be put in place.

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So we better have, like, you know, some guardrails, not only guard rails, but like, like you know.

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c. Craig Patterson: as whatever we can do to not be oppressive to an art form, but with forward thinking about the human beings that go in into it right

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c. Craig Patterson: team knows like they're probably tired of hearing me say, and it's our job is to be holdover right. Hold the door. These are like the best we can, and I, and you know, maybe it is a fatalistic outlook. But I do think in the long run the corporation will win right. But

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c. Craig Patterson: Yeah, but if we can hold that door for a few generations our job, and then it becomes somebody else's like time to pick up the mantle, but as long as we're here we hold the door right.

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Erin Reilly: Well, I'm curious, I assume. You know, you know. Edward sat with fable, vision and simulation, and he was in the writer's strike. He was pretty out there, outspoken around simulation and everything. I mean. Do you think that? Do you think that what he was proposing is holding the door? Or Oh, yeah, I mean, there's no I don't have a monopoly on the outlook of what it takes to hold the door. We're all gonna throw out our own ideas on what it is. And

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c. Craig Patterson: I'm a believer in like, whatever the people decide like, you know, we should really really consider and and think about and like, if everyone likes cause all of those companies that you'll have as a part of that they're not wrong, right? I do think that there's a time where we like, okay, well, like, what breaks are we put in on this and and at whose expense?

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c. Craig Patterson: Right? You know, right? We're rightly thinking about what corporations will do with this work versus what artists are doing with this work.

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Erin Reilly: And if you could give me one or 2, what would be the kind of the breaking point like what do you? What? What is probably your biggest concern with corporations?

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c. Craig Patterson: Oh, II think that There's

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c. Craig Patterson: there are parts of the capitalistic outcome of things. Right? You have. We're beholden to shareholders right? And you know you have to start crunching crunch and crunching. And when you start crunching we start losing friends. We start. We start seeing departments become pretty empty.

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c. Craig Patterson: Yeah, I was. I was really curious. I don't know if you know Chris Duffy, who heads all of the AI strategic planning for adobe across their entire Morgan like in his department. Yeah.

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Erin Reilly: And he was telling me about how as we, we can not only have our own brand and do our own Llms, but like, if artists actually submit or add to. I stock and put our own imagery in that they're gonna compensate and think about micro payments, which is, when I was thinking about all of this shift. II wrote about new funding and business models, open source which remixes based on open source, right? So like.

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Erin Reilly: how do we start creating these open source movements that change the economics? Would you be a contributor like an artist?

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Erin Reilly: Are you looking for corporations like adobe. That's like wanting to compensate. And do you know of any others besides Adobe that's starting to think that way?

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c. Craig Patterson: Only oh, actually, I only know of Adobe Firefly. How like how they're doing that! You know. I think it will have to become more commonplace for me personally, no cause. I do my stuff in house, and and you know so it's II don't ever think about it like it would kind of be a scary thing for me for my work to get out like that, because it's all attached to. You know, things that are larger than one image.

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c. Craig Patterson: It could. Yeah, it could. And even if it did.

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c. Craig Patterson: You know, I had a professor I used to be profoundly afraid to like. Send my workout right, La Lauren. Paul Kaplan, he said. He was like, what I want you to do is I want you to print a hundred copies of your script, run a helicopter and drop it over New York City. Nobody gives it to him.

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c. Craig Patterson: So you know it. That helped really free me to understand like, oh, man like yes, you sent out to Nda to do all of that. But like, if it goes out, you can't. You can't stop. You'd be lucky if people pay attention to it.

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Erin Reilly: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, let's dig in a little bit to your process, because I was really curious about the prompt engineering you were doing and how you had said, like just doing the draft, for example, was 100 to 200 prompts. Can you talk a little bit about

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Erin Reilly: your evolution of prompt building and fine-tuning? Because I'm teaching a creativity and AI class this semester. And I'm really curious as to how far do I push them? And what should I see from them? In their process?

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c. Craig Patterson: Yeah, I. So I take the opposite approach of what I do for writing. So for writing. If I'm writing a script at first, I write a 10 page short story. Right? Then I'll put in half. Then I'll make it one page, and I'll make it a paragraph. Then it's a sentence, then it's one word right? And that way. I know exactly what the story is about, right? So for a prompt. And I kind of start out the opposite. I'll be like that.

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c. Craig Patterson: You know, man and field, and just see what I know, like what I get with that. Then you start adding on top of that like a man running, and feel extremely tired, right son. And then you start adding in like all the sun is over, hitting it beating down on it. Then you add, like all like there's dust in a distance, then like, and you start getting. Then you start getting into the like. A minute details, or what I feel is minute like for the

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c. Craig Patterson: images. But specifically we'll start talking about the lens, the lens choice right? The aperture starts talking about, you know. Things like

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c. Craig Patterson: What I want it to feel like, am I referencing something with this right? Am I my reference in a famous photograph of my reference in, you know, a very specific visual artist, and I'm aware of right and things like that. So by the time you get to that, and so in not all the time, it's that version that is the best version.

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c. Craig Patterson: right it is the one that was like 2 or 3 steps before that. Right so I'll have an image of like. Oh, this is. This is the framing that I want. But this is the vibe that I want

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c. Craig Patterson: right. It's not. It's not an exact science yet, and one of the things that I preach all the time is like, try to make it there will. There will come a time very soon, right where this will be a pre, a professional tool and not a consumer tool. And we'll be able to really get into like the nitty gritty with it, but you know I was. My my mind was not blown, but like

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c. Craig Patterson: thoroughly impressed by

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c. Craig Patterson: What runway's new tool did like, you know that they rolled out this week what that's able to do. II took an image from a poster for the book of Clarence, and I threw it in there, and I and I used their new motion brush tool and I tested it out, and it kind of blew my mind.

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c. Craig Patterson: Matter

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c. Craig Patterson: It only happened once. cause I tried to replicate it about

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c. Craig Patterson: 2 dozen times, and couldn't get it to redo it. But even just this one, all of them sent, and it went from one computer to the next. Alright. Here we go.

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c. Craig Patterson: the multi-computer problem. Alright.

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Here we go. Can you see this?

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Erin Reilly: Oh, yeah.

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c. Craig Patterson: okay. Now.

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Erin Reilly: That's impressive. Whoa, yeah, that's very impressive. That was really clean.

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c. Craig Patterson: So you know, that's and that's

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c. Craig Patterson: The problem, for that was like, you know, I'm not diving into. That's not my work. So I'm just. I just was like black man pouting.

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c. Craig Patterson: and was what it did after I painted the exact parts of his face that I wanted to change. That's what it gave. And it was just like, Oh.

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c. Craig Patterson: I can see how people can start to feel like that's cheating. That's not fair, right? Because that took no effort to do

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c. Craig Patterson: right. Now, the difference is, if you're making promotional materials.

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Erin Reilly: That's kind of fair game to me. It feels like, you know. But if you're if you need to replicate that more than 4 s. It's going to be exponentially more difficult. Yeah, that's what I feel like, it's like, it's got to be the length, right?

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Erin Reilly: Basically about like, how long are you using repurposing it?

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c. Craig Patterson: Yeah, well, it's like 4 s for songs, too, right? Or something like that. Yeah, so like, those are the Garbas like. Yep, that's fine. That's cool. But you know, you start hitting over that like. Now, we gotta we got an issue that we need to talk about right and promotional trailers. I could see them being used because you're in the middle of production, and you don't always have it. You know I've taught all my students to do all their trailers with AI tools.

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c. Craig Patterson: And it's smart, and but like you know, and while that's a tool out of necessity. I recognize what we're saying is like, there's artists that are like, wait a minute, I do that, and my prices are good, right, you know. That's not me, either. Right so. But it's

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c. Craig Patterson: man. There was a lot of handsome cab and buggy folks that had to deal with, you know Henry Ford, you know. Oh, for sure, for sure.

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Erin Reilly: So, looking into the future 5 years, 10 years, 20 years out! Where do you think this will go from an artistic standpoint and then my last question will be on. Do you think of these tools? Do you think you are a remix artist

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Erin Reilly: Now that you use these tools?

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c. Craig Patterson: No cause I didn't think I was the first person to question. Tell me a little bit about love because you're playing with this so much. Where do you think it's going in the future?

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c. Craig Patterson: I think that there's different futures right? Because there's different levels of film making right on the if you're looking at the blockbuster side of where things are going right. There'll be major changes right? There'll be like it. It will affect the effects. Artists in a probably very real way for an extra. Now you don't ever have to come back.

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c. Craig Patterson: And yeah, and you know apparently, that you know. there, there's certainly a fear with that right?

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c. Craig Patterson: You know. And and and as it becomes more ubiquitous like, it's gonna be. It's gonna be a bigger deal, just because right now, only top top tier people could be like, I'm gonna use digital extras, right? You know, one hallmark is being able to do it, everybody in trouble, right? So so but that's a thing to be concerned about. There's so many.

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c. Craig Patterson: And that I say this at the same time, knowing that there's gonna be a huge sector of this. That's gonna be an extreme job creation.

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c. Craig Patterson: And that's that's why I have less of the fear about how would of affect my my

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c. Craig Patterson: my Vfx brethren. And you know the people I love in that space cause. They're they're very agile people. Oh, yeah, oh, this is a new system. Okay, I'm gonna learn a new system. Yeah. And now, like, you know, so it's

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c. Craig Patterson: Man, being agile is important in times of flux, right? And this is very much a time of flux, and being able to work with it. And and then there'll be those standout filmmakers that'll take the Christopher Nolan approach to be like, you shall not pass this. This is what we're gonna do here, and 100%. And I think that'll be beautiful as well as I don't. Wanna. I don't wanna watch one type of thing. I don't wanna read one type of thing. I don't wanna experience one type.

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c. Craig Patterson: right? But as far as on the, you know, mid to lower tier. Indeed! Stuff it. It'll give people the chance to have more vivid productions

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c. Craig Patterson: right? And because, like Oh, I can now, you know, do things that weren't possible for me to do with this budget before

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c. Craig Patterson: right, and have place so in a way, and take it away right? Yeah, for sure, for sure.

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c. Craig Patterson: But do I do myself as a remix artist. No, you know. I've been calling this remix in the age of AI. I am myself as the humble students sitting in front of the masterwork in the met and II, sketch in a dream and I learn right.

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Erin Reilly: I hope we all do that right? Yeah, I feel like the world is a remix. Honestly, you know we can't. We can't help it, you know. But,

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c. Craig Patterson: I like what I tried to never do is is

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c. Craig Patterson: Just take this one thing. Now I'll say this. I tend to reference lots of things from early French cinema and early English cinema, right? And some Italian cinema both, that that's a very like

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c. Craig Patterson: There's a lot of people in that space, right? So if I feel like, if you're gonna reference, something that breathes life into an artist that people may have forgotten was incredible.

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c. Craig Patterson: Right? You know. So that's that's the thing. If you're gonna go looking, I want you to go look in and find somebody amazing.

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Erin Reilly: Oh, that's awesome. Well, see, Craig, thank you so much for letting me interview you. I'll be sending. I'm still trying to get the permission form from Rutledge to like which one I use but once I get it from them, or they approve the one I just made up, I will send it to you. That's what that's used for.

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c. Craig Patterson: But that way. So you'll prove I have to do it. Submit all this by the end of the month, so you'll probably be hearing from me sometime over the holiday.

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Erin Reilly: Awesome? Thanks so much. Yeah. You, too, take care, bye.